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-   -   Do you consider magic demonic? (http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/showthread.php?t=341218)

TheGillotine 06-25-2019 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTS (Post 9652023)
My granny was the same. She didn't hold with drinkin', smokin', cussin', card playin', or women who dress like hussies. Surprisingly fun to hang around, for all that.

Yeah the no smoking thing was certainly a benefit imo.

ARTS 06-25-2019 01:27 PM

Speaking of plays - I was in a play once in college, and had to smoke a cigarette in one scene. My granny came up afterwards, and said, "Darlin' you did such a good job on that stage. But I did kindly want to slap. your. face. every time you puffed that cigarette."

And with those three words, she gave me three "playful" slaps on the cheek, that were really not all that playful. They hurt! This was a woman who grew up milking cows every day, her bare palm felt like a brick.

Vorian Atreides 06-25-2019 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGillotine (Post 9651970)
I have met someone who thought all Disney movies were Satanic.

Escape to Witch Mountain

Night on Bald Mountain sequence in the original Fantasia

Bedknobs and Broomsticks


Yeah, I can see that.

Jasper07734 06-25-2019 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGillotine (Post 9651970)
I have met someone who thought all Disney movies were Satanic.

Just take them to Six Flags after each viewing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he0ayNefASc

Tarot Actuary 06-26-2019 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGillotine (Post 9651765)
Would you compare that to a baseball player wearing lucky socks every game, thinking they increase his abilities? That seems like magic to me, though it usually isn't called that.

TG, I've thought about this question some more, because something just didn't quite set right. My sense, that I couldn't wrap words around, is that superstition and magic are similar, but different things. But I couldn't quite put my finger on what the difference was I was intuiting.

I reached out to some folks that have thought about questions like this much more deeply than I have, and I'll share some of the answers I got.

This is the question as I posed it:

Spoiler:
I'm not sure how to answer that. My knee-jerk would be to say, that sound like unintentional magic. But then, isn't intent the very heart of magic? Can magic be unintentional, or does intent have to be present to call it magic?
What he's describing is what most people would call a "superstition." Which got me thinking: is there a working definition for superstition, that distinguishes it from magic? I'm not sure I can put words to one.


And these are a couple of the answers that I got that I found most helpful:

Spoiler:
It's certainly magickal thinking.

Spoiler:
"Magic" and "occultism" are umbrella terms that broadly define a whole lot of ideas and practices. Superstition plays a major role in some of them--particularly folk magic and sympathetic magic. Other forms of magic draw more on ideas about the paranormal, spiritual, or mystical--or, in modern times, psychology. the lucky socks analogy can be explained as a type of superstitious practice that may have a psychological effect. This type of activity would be defined as "magical thinking" but not exactly magic.

Spoiler:
You have said unintentional magic and I'd agree with the meaning. However I believe the wrong word choice confuses you. A more apt description would be "Un reformed, aka chaotic magic"
The base ball player fully expects/intends for his luck to increase by the ritual of putting those socks. Socks themselves can be treated as a sigil or a talisman. However due to the luckluster nature of both the foundation behind the ritual and the use of traditionally unresponsive material (cotton or polyester) the effects would again be luckluster. The focus is nearly non existent, luck is such a broad word that unless it is binded by an event or time (or both) it can mean anything.
All beliefs are a potential foundation to do magic as all beliefs are actually manifestation of will; you choose (will) to believe in something. However as I said above since they often don't have a strong foundation their effects are often diminished to the point of neglecance unless your personal feelings is extremely strong.

Dr T Non-Fan 06-26-2019 02:17 PM

Meh.

There is practicing magic, performing scientifically proven acts (from a book/internet, so it must work) with the expectation that magic will happen because the book/internet said it would.

And there is doing OCD stuff that is not scientifically proven with the expectation that magic will happen because of it, like superstition.

Both assume magic exist.
And if one thinks magic exists, one must also assume that magic can be done for evil purposes (demonic), since the magic one performs is often for one's benefit and, as a consequence, the demise of another. Conversely, the magic you DON'T do, avoiding black cats and avoiding walking under ladders, allegedly causes one's own demise, i.e., evil and demonic.

(Some of this should be in demonic red font.)

Tarot Actuary 06-26-2019 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr T Non-Fan (Post 9653065)
Both assume magic exist.

No, I don't think this necessarily holds up. Not if you mean, on a conscious level. Someone with a completely materialistic, rational worldview can nonetheless come to the conclusion that certain rituals, for whatever reason, can produce effects that seem almost magical. One could easily think of it as a sort of juking of the placebo effect, for example.

Quote:

And if one thinks magic exists, one must also assume that magic can be done for evil purposes (demonic), since the magic one performs is often for one's benefit and, as a consequence, the demise of another. Conversely, the magic you DON'T do, avoiding black cats and avoiding walking under ladders, allegedly causes one's own demise, i.e., evil and demonic.
I think this is very reasonable, but, it would only seem so to a magician that embraces a worldview in which "good" and "evil" are something more than mere human constructs projected onto experiences that, rightly understood, transcend those labels. I tend to embrace such a view, but I've read enough that I could make a compelling argument in the other direction.

TheGillotine 06-26-2019 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr T Non-Fan (Post 9653065)
Meh.

There is practicing magic, performing scientifically proven acts (from a book/internet, so it must work) with the expectation that magic will happen because the book/internet said it would.

And there is doing OCD stuff that is not scientifically proven with the expectation that magic will happen because of it, like superstition.

Both assume magic exist.
And if one thinks magic exists, one must also assume that magic can be done for evil purposes (demonic), since the magic one performs is often for one's benefit and, as a consequence, the demise of another. Conversely, the magic you DON'T do, avoiding black cats and avoiding walking under ladders, allegedly causes one's own demise, i.e., evil and demonic.

(Some of this should be in demonic red font.)

I draw a distinction between evil and demonic. I think demonic outside of a poetic sense should involve otherworldly supernatural beings, probably but not necessarily evil.

Tarot Actuary 06-26-2019 03:26 PM

This too (I made a similar point in my first post to this thread, so I didn't see the need to belabor it).


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