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  #731  
Old 08-14-2019, 09:48 PM
WhatsGolden WhatsGolden is offline
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I suspect youíre right, regarding the subs. The Submersive is sealed, and sealed subs are really musical. They have way less group delay, whatever signal you feed them, they pretty much follow it.

The Captivator is vented, so more delay, especially as you approach the tuning frequency. Now, the Captivator is tuned very low, which helps. Some argue that the delay isnít enough to be audible, but I think it usually is. BUT, you get more output with a vent, and at a given SPL you need less excursion - so at higher SPL that can reduce distortion.

No free lunch and all that.
Fully understand and agree. I think the biggest aspect of my current setup of the Cap is the rest of the system. The current rolloff above 80hz is very weird and is influencing how I'm hearing the Cap. I want to do some more testing to see if it is due to the Sonos, the room, or the speakers. I think my first move is going to be to test with two of my JTR 228HT's, then if that is still lacking with the Sonos I'll move to a Pioneer receiver I have laying around.

I'd find it weird to have it be the room that is the issue. I did have a Sonos Playbar in there at one point and it sounded much better there than in the bedroom. The Playbar picked up a surprising amount of decent bass due to having an electronic cubbie behind it that sort of acted like a ported box.
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  #732  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:13 PM
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I've never heard Maggies myself, but have only heard good things about them. I also hadn't kept up with them and just realized the MMGs are no longer in production.
Iíve been a fan for two decades. They excel at vocals and strings and what not. They arenít for cranking AC/DC to 11. Room placement is tough, making them kind of hard to live with at times. But when you get them dialed in and throw on Gillian Welch, itís pretty sublime!
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  #733  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:16 PM
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Fully understand and agree. I think the biggest aspect of my current setup of the Cap is the rest of the system. The current rolloff above 80hz is very weird and is influencing how I'm hearing the Cap. I want to do some more testing to see if it is due to the Sonos, the room, or the speakers. I think my first move is going to be to test with two of my JTR 228HT's, then if that is still lacking with the Sonos I'll move to a Pioneer receiver I have laying around.

I'd find it weird to have it be the room that is the issue. I did have a Sonos Playbar in there at one point and it sounded much better there than in the bedroom. The Playbar picked up a surprising amount of decent bass due to having an electronic cubbie behind it that sort of acted like a ported box.
Do you think phase is an issue? That would affect not only above 80Hz, but also below a bit. I like the idea of throwing the Pioneer receiver in the mix, I wonder if the Sonos is shifting the phase - just a guess.

If you donít have something like an OmniMic, you can find sine wave sweep videos on YouTube, and Iíve had some luck using those to identify nulls.
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:49 PM
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Do you think phase is an issue? That would affect not only above 80Hz, but also below a bit. I like the idea of throwing the Pioneer receiver in the mix, I wonder if the Sonos is shifting the phase - just a guess.

If you donít have something like an OmniMic, you can find sine wave sweep videos on YouTube, and Iíve had some luck using those to identify nulls.
It isn't a phase issue between the sub and speakers. I unplugged the sub for a bit and it sounds the same. To my ears, its somewhere between ~80-150hz that just sounds dead. First thing I'll try after this is switching the wire for one of the speakers and see if it remains as is or if that truly puts them out of phase, which really I think is going to yield that they are currently in phase based on the response down around 40-50hz.

I'll definitely be trying out either the JTRs or the Pioneer receiver to isolate it. I'm leaning towards it being that I've gotten used to the JTR sound and really am not a fan of the JBLs anymore.
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  #735  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:57 PM
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It isn't a phase issue between the sub and speakers. I unplugged the sub for a bit and it sounds the same. To my ears, its somewhere between ~80-150hz that just sounds dead. First thing I'll try after this is switching the wire for one of the speakers and see if it remains as is or if that truly puts them out of phase, which really I think is going to yield that they are currently in phase based on the response down around 40-50hz.

I'll definitely be trying out either the JTRs or the Pioneer receiver to isolate it. I'm leaning towards it being that I've gotten used to the JTR sound and really am not a fan of the JBLs anymore.
Is that suckout in the 80-150Hz range present regardless of where you sit/stand? If you move 6' closer, or 6' farther away, and it persists, then probably not the room. At 100Hz you're talking about a ~10' wavelength, so moving a couple of feet would impact the room modes pretty significantly.

Agree that phasing is also worth checking out as well!
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:00 AM
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Is that suckout in the 80-150Hz range present regardless of where you sit/stand? If you move 6' closer, or 6' farther away, and it persists, then probably not the room. At 100Hz you're talking about a ~10' wavelength, so moving a couple of feet would impact the room modes pretty significantly.

Agree that phasing is also worth checking out as well!
Yep, it is regardless of location. I don't think it is room. I'm hoping to test more tomorrow or Sunday to see impacts of the Sonos/JBLs. It is one of the two in some way, whether it is fixable with them on their own is yet to be determined.

I've been listening to the media setup some more shortly after the living room setup, and I'm leaning more towards the Captivator and Submersive being more similar than different. I think the clarity/power of the JTR mains will overwhelm in the higher bass that I'm struggling to get over in my judgement of the subs. I'll figure it out soon enough, just takes some time. Overall both are great subs. I'd recommend either to anybody that is looking, its just a matter of which one works out better for the situation.
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:30 PM
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Yep, the JBLs just donít sound as good to me anymore. I switched the phase of 1 and it definitely went out of phase with that. Brought the 228s up and hooked them up to the Sonos. Night and day difference. No more deadness.

Listened to a wide variety of music to push the Cap some more. Having the upper bass back gives a phenomenal sound. Actually had to turn the Cap up a bit to be able to keep up with the sensitivity of the 228s. My thoughts of the Cap being less musical is not a worry at all, although with less sensitive speakers I think the Submersive would have an easier time to integrate.
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  #738  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:09 PM
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Yep, the JBLs just donít sound as good to me anymore. I switched the phase of 1 and it definitely went out of phase with that. Brought the 228s up and hooked them up to the Sonos. Night and day difference. No more deadness.

Listened to a wide variety of music to push the Cap some more. Having the upper bass back gives a phenomenal sound. Actually had to turn the Cap up a bit to be able to keep up with the sensitivity of the 228s. My thoughts of the Cap being less musical is not a worry at all, although with less sensitive speakers I think the Submersive would have an easier time to integrate.
Weird, so the JBL just have a dip in the response in the 100-ish Hz area. I've seen lots of EBS designs that have a dip but it's usually a) only a dB or two and b) quite a lot lower than 100Hz.

I need to hear a Captivator at some point. The new 'extra small' one looks intriguing, just because it's the first sub from JTR that isn't ridiculously large. And I want to hear the 4000, because it is just absolutely ridiculous.
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  #739  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:12 PM
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I'm a big fan of Magnepan, and I've owned three pairs previously. Yes, they are hard to live with, but they are pretty magical. There is a pair of MMG for sale locally, very good condition, for $325. Typical price on eBay is ~$400, so I don't think I can lose, and I don't know if I have the willpower not to buy these.

I have a 15" Monitor Audio sub I'm not using, that would pair well with these for the bottom octave.
I did hook these up, to my $200 Yamaha receiver, at some point I'll get proper amplification on them. Crossed them at 80Hz to the Monitor sub. Need to play with positioning them more, but I threw on some Avett Brothers and immediately fell back in love with planars.

My son's currently using my NAD integrated, I think I'll get him a cheap receiver and reclaim that. It does 150w/channel, which is the kind of current you need for something that's ~85dB efficient.
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  #740  
Old 09-13-2019, 02:04 AM
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It's funny how I'm appreciating different music than I used to, partly because of the quality of my stereo.

For instance, I've had generally positive thoughts about a fair number of John Cougar Mellencamp's songs, but I wouldn't have called myself a huge fan. But with my current system, I'm finding that I love the way his music was recorded. Easily some of the best quality among rock music, IMO. I particularly appreciate his "Lonesome Jubilee" album. "Paper In Fire" from that album is now perhaps my favorite of his.

I'm afraid when I write stuff like the above, it sounds like I'm just being an audio snob. But I'm serious when I say that a quality stereo brings out stuff that is just missing when listening through cheaper equipment. I think I'm now better able to hear (and thus appreciate) what the artists intended their music to sound like. The end result is that I probably like a lot more music than I used to. So, if anything, it's almost like the fancy stereo has made me LESS of a snob in terms of what music I enjoy.

Not sure if I'm saying any of that well...
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