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  #61  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:35 PM
Kalium Kalium is offline
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It is false to claim that certification has no bearing on earnings. If that were the case the qualification has no value. Many jobs ask for qualified actuaries. ...
If you think the qualification has an intrinsic value, try going for a server role in your local restaurant and asking for a high rate of pay purely on the basis that you have a piece of paper saying FIA/FSA/FCAS ...

It has a bearing on earnings only in that it is an indication that the holder should be able to produce work at an appropriate high level / quality. Companies ask for qualified actuaries because they need work done at that level, and then pay the going rate for the work produced.

They can, and sometimes do, even pay the same "qualifed" rate to Associates/Students if they can produce work at the Fellowship level (except for roles specifically requiring a Fellowship signature). Conversely I've known a few people who had passed all the exams, so had Fellowship, but for various reasons couldn't actually produce work at that level; they didn't last very long in their roles (sometimes repeatedly), and ultimately either accepted lower pay, or left the profession.
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  #62  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:16 PM
actuary_truther actuary_truther is offline
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If you think the qualification has an intrinsic value, try going for a server role in your local restaurant and asking for a high rate of pay purely on the basis that you have a piece of paper saying FIA/FSA/FCAS ...
The qualification is not relevant for that line of work, therefore your argument is nonsense.

The rest of your argument is also completely unfounded. Look at salary surveys and remuneration is in line with exam passes.
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  #63  
Old 08-21-2019, 05:49 AM
ishamael ishamael is offline
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Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
If you think the qualification has an intrinsic value, try going for a server role in your local restaurant and asking for a high rate of pay purely on the basis that you have a piece of paper saying FIA/FSA/FCAS ...

It has a bearing on earnings only in that it is an indication that the holder should be able to produce work at an appropriate high level / quality. Companies ask for qualified actuaries because they need work done at that level, and then pay the going rate for the work produced.

They can, and sometimes do, even pay the same "qualifed" rate to Associates/Students if they can produce work at the Fellowship level (except for roles specifically requiring a Fellowship signature). Conversely I've known a few people who had passed all the exams, so had Fellowship, but for various reasons couldn't actually produce work at that level; they didn't last very long in their roles (sometimes repeatedly), and ultimately either accepted lower pay, or left the profession.
You certainly won't get Fellowship pay asking for a waitering job in a restaurant.

However, in my experience non-Fellows getting "qualified" pay usually only applies to very senior people around 15+ years of experience and they need to be exceptionally good (or political savvy). Usually these are people who have transitioned out of "traditional" actuarial roles.

For a more typical 5-10 year experience person, if they are good in the sense that they produce Qualified actuary quality work if not better, "oh you do brilliant work on par with that of a qualified actuary but unfortunately I am not allowed to pay you any more or grant you any further promotions until you get yourself qualified" is something they frequently get.
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  #64  
Old 08-21-2019, 08:44 AM
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The_Polymath The_Polymath is offline
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You certainly won't get Fellowship pay asking for a waitering job in a restaurant.

However, in my experience non-Fellows getting "qualified" pay usually only applies to very senior people around 15+ years of experience and they need to be exceptionally good (or political savvy). Usually these are people who have transitioned out of "traditional" actuarial roles.

For a more typical 5-10 year experience person, if they are good in the sense that they produce Qualified actuary quality work if not better, "oh you do brilliant work on par with that of a qualified actuary but unfortunately I am not allowed to pay you any more or grant you any further promotions until you get yourself qualified" is something they frequently get.
You would essentially get caught up in the salary bandings.

Senior Student might be level 4 and 40-60k

Newly Qualified would then be level 5 and 50-80k

Just an example but I do think it represents most companies.
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  #65  
Old 08-23-2019, 07:54 AM
Kalium Kalium is offline
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You certainly won't get Fellowship pay asking for a waitering job in a restaurant.
Precisely. Fellowship doesn't have any instrinsic value. It is an indication that someone should be capable of producing work at the level of most other Fellows. If they actually produce that work then they get paid at that level, but if they can't (either because they can't get an appropriate job, or because in practice they are less competent) then they don't.

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Originally Posted by ishamael View Post
For a more typical 5-10 year experience person, if they are good in the sense that they produce Qualified actuary quality work if not better, "oh you do brilliant work on par with that of a qualified actuary but unfortunately I am not allowed to pay you any more or grant you any further promotions until you get yourself qualified" is something they frequently get.
That depends on whether they seriously want to keep you. Companies are often constrained by hierachical pyramid, with promotion only available when a vacancy arises. If you can consistently, and demonstrably, produce "brilliant work on a par with a qualified actuary", but your current employer can't or won't pay, then if you are dissatisfied you can move.

Consultancies tend to be more meritocratic: if you continually produce brilliant work, for which clients are willing to pay the "qualified" charge-out rate, then you can expect to be promoted and paid at a level consistent with that rate.
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  #66  
Old 08-31-2019, 09:47 AM
actuary_truther actuary_truther is offline
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Precisely. Fellowship doesn't have any instrinsic value. It is an indication that someone should be capable of producing work at the level of most other Fellows. If they actually produce that work then they get paid at that level, but if they can't (either because they can't get an appropriate job, or because in practice they are less competent) then they don't.
I'm afraid that is complete nonsense. The qualification is meant to vouch for a competency standard and fitness to practice. If not, the qualification has no value. You seem to be arguing that. Perhaps you should explain to the IFoA their qualification has no value and ask yourself why then you did it.
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  #67  
Old 08-31-2019, 09:48 AM
actuary_truther actuary_truther is offline
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You certainly won't get Fellowship pay asking for a waitering job in a restaurant.
The qualification is not for that line of work, the argument made is ridiculous. Doctor or airline pilot qualification doesn't get you a payrise as a waiter either. Kind of embarrassing for actuaries to be making such arguments.

Last edited by actuary_truther; 08-31-2019 at 09:55 AM..
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  #68  
Old 08-31-2019, 10:03 AM
actuary_truther actuary_truther is offline
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For a more typical 5-10 year experience person, if they are good in the sense that they produce Qualified actuary quality work if not better, "oh you do brilliant work on par with that of a qualified actuary but unfortunately I am not allowed to pay you any more or grant you any further promotions until you get yourself qualified" is something they frequently get.
Yes that's what happens. If you're not qualified there is a ceiling.
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  #69  
Old 09-02-2019, 07:20 AM
ishamael ishamael is offline
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The qualification is not for that line of work, the argument made is ridiculous. Doctor or airline pilot qualification doesn't get you a payrise as a waiter either. Kind of embarrassing for actuaries to be making such arguments.
That sentence, taken on its own is ridiculous yes. But I would suggest you read the entire context, i.e. what specific statement that I was replying to before making judgements.
If you want to talk about "embarrassing", after all, drawing conclusions from Actuarial reports by reading it as a whole instead of picking on isolated paragraphs is fundamental, innit??
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  #70  
Old 09-02-2019, 07:44 AM
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I am not sure why you guys keep arguing against his point.

There is most definitely a ceiling. Lets not start sugarcoating the situation with outlier examples.
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