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  #51  
Old 07-31-2019, 08:28 AM
IroningBoard IroningBoard is offline
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Originally Posted by The_Polymath View Post
Just heard from a few students that the IfoA just sent out a mass email regarding the cancellation of all exemption agreements with non-UK organisations.

This will be implemented by the 31st of July (today)

Seems that the IfoA recognises it lost the mapping fight, and is now responding.
I wonder if SOA and CAS will follow suit? The IFoA did imply it is temporary while they carry out a review of foreign qualifications.

Edit: sorry my misunderstanding. They’ll the reviewing the qualifications that people are currently sitting, but will then close permanently from the end of 2021 (allowing people to apply up until the end of 2022).

Last edited by IroningBoard; 07-31-2019 at 08:32 AM..
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  #52  
Old 07-31-2019, 10:00 AM
The_Polymath The_Polymath is offline
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I wonder if SOA and CAS will follow suit? The IFoA did imply it is temporary while they carry out a review of foreign qualifications.

Edit: sorry my misunderstanding. They’ll the reviewing the qualifications that people are currently sitting, but will then close permanently from the end of 2021 (allowing people to apply up until the end of 2022).
They have to have sat the exam by Dec 31st 2018

After that it is not valid. They just have till 2022 to apply for the exemption if they sat the exams before Dec 31st 2018.

The transition agreement makes this moot though.

Assuming they map correctly (I would think the CAS and SOA would) the exemptions could then be applied retroactively irrespective of what happens now.

Seems like the IfoA is doing some house cleaning because many actuarial organisations abroad are diverging from the UK mapping (i.e. they have easier content). Thats my take on it in any event.
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  #53  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:14 PM
actuary_truther actuary_truther is offline
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https://www.actuaries.org.uk/news-an...ion-exemptions

This is not totally clear-cut. If IFoA are satisfied their new curriculum exams map to those of the other organisations it will allow exemptions for exam sat until 31st December 2021.

They've also given themselves discretion if one's employer insists a person must complete qualification with IFoA.

Furthermore this does not fix the IAI discrimination matter.

The elephants in the room are all the Mutual Recognition Agreements. Why would these continue? There's no use getting rid of individual exam exemptions if the MRAs are in force.

Overall, a typical IFoA mess.

"Why are you making this change?
Our arrangements with other actuarial associations related to exemption agreements needed to be reviewed to meet contemporary standards of good governance."


lol. More like they've lost in Court on a case involving IAI exemptions which was found to be discriminatory and know the rest of their policies are now vulnerable to similar legal attacks. For example, the new IFoA exams are double exams but other associations still have the luxury of single exams. It's very unfair for single exams to be recognised for double exams when IFoA members have no choice but to do double exams, which are much harder.

Last edited by actuary_truther; 07-31-2019 at 12:28 PM..
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  #54  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:26 PM
ishamael ishamael is offline
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Originally Posted by actuary_truther View Post
https://www.actuaries.org.uk/news-an...ion-exemptions

The elephants in the room are all the Mutual Recognition Agreements. Why would these continue? There's no use getting rid of individual exam exemptions if the MRAs are in force.

Overall, a typical IFoA mess.
https://www.insuranceerm.com/news-co...-to-court.html
Looks like the IAI case has resurrected this particular issue.
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  #55  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:06 PM
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764dak 764dak is offline
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Actuarial science is a mess.
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  #56  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:07 PM
Misterbass Misterbass is offline
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They probably want to hire natural-born citizens before foreigners.

The IFoA had a bunch of mutual recognition agreements with other countries and were probably in danger of foreigners gaining access to things like their data, shares, etc. If that creates perceived racial discrimination, that kinda sucks, but it is still a legitimate threat to the English people no matter what we want to believe, especially when you have workers with multiple citizenships.

South African citizens can not hold more than two citizenships for this reason, legally of course

Think Capital One data breach, but now your insurer is suffering
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  #57  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:10 PM
The_Polymath The_Polymath is offline
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Actuarial science is a mess.
Nah. Easy solution is to simply give Associateship to MRAs from mapped countries below the UKs standards. Convergence has clearly not beem achieved. Then leave full equivalence (FIA) open for when the other organisations catch uo in terms of content and skill.
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  #58  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:13 PM
Misterbass Misterbass is offline
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Or maybe workers should be compensated on a global scale based on the work they do, certifications and local relative pay...
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  #59  
Old 08-06-2019, 01:30 PM
Kalium Kalium is offline
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Or maybe workers should be compensated on a global scale based on the work they do, certifications and local relative pay...
It is a common mistake, particularly among those close to qualifiying, and by some of the complainants in various cases, to think that compensation is driven by certification. Compensation is ultimately determined by work done. The latter may be (but isn't necessarily) determined by certification.

This mistake then leads on to other issues, such as thinking that mutual recognition systems must be precisely matched.
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  #60  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:28 PM
actuary_truther actuary_truther is offline
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Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
It is a common mistake, particularly among those close to qualifiying, and by some of the complainants in various cases, to think that compensation is driven by certification. Compensation is ultimately determined by work done. The latter may be (but isn't necessarily) determined by certification.

This mistake then leads on to other issues, such as thinking that mutual recognition systems must be precisely matched.
It is false to claim that certification has no bearing on earnings. If that were the case the qualification has no value. Many jobs ask for qualified actuaries. The qualification is a key tool to negotiate higher pay and many companies automatically reward it. Moreover IFoA's CEO once boasted that the IFoA Fellowship added a value of $1m to one's career:

https://www.theactuary.com/opinion/2...ng-our-talent/

"Given the nature of our exams, it is perhaps no surprise that in markets where there are multiple providers of actuarial qualifications we are rarely dominant by number, but are usually disproportionately represented within senior roles. This was backed up a couple of years ago by an independent survey of salaries in China and South-East Asia that showed our qualified actuaries earning 10%-15% more at all stages of their careers compared with other actuaries – that equates to over $1,000,000 dollars in today’s money over the course of a lifetime."
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